Transdisciplinary Research

00:00:00: I think when you are a researcher that is not within the mainstream, but outside of working in an unconventional way as some would call it.

00:00:08: Having communities where you find researchers who pursue the same practices really helps because they get recognition and can also exchange about proper practices for joint events.

00:00:44: Welcome back to Inside Sustainability Interfaces!

00:00:47: The podcast where researchers, scholars and practitioners reflect on sustainability transformation under all of science in society.

00:00:57: Today we have a really exciting conversation lined up!

00:01:02: We're joined by two researchers from the Transdisciplinary Lab, The TD Lab at ETH Zurich.

00:01:09: Benjamin Hoffman is a group leader there and has been exploring how science in society interacts with climate change hotspots like the Alps.

00:01:20: Sheila Infricioli is a doctoral researcher whose work sits on the interface of forest science and forest practice.

00:01:28: Today they are talking about Transdisciplinary research, what it actually means.

00:01:34: Why?

00:01:35: It matters for sustainability and What happens when local knowledge and scientific knowledge meet in practice.

00:01:46: So let's start with the basics because I think transdisciplinary Research is one of those terms that gets used a lot but isn't always well understood.

00:01:57: Benjamin how will you explain into someone who has never heard the word before?

00:02:02: For me, transdisciplinary research means bringing together the worlds of science and society.

00:02:08: So scientific rigor and societal relevance.

00:02:11: This means it's about joint problem framing by researchers and societal stakeholders.

00:02:16: for me It also involves developing solutions or at least ideas for solutions for complex problems.

00:02:23: And often what we forget is that underlying this is also interdisciplinary collaboration.

00:02:28: so collaboration between different scientific disciplines.

00:02:31: And Sheila, coming from your PhD work.

00:02:33: Does that description resonate with your day-to-day experience and practice?

00:02:38: Yes it resonates a lot.

00:02:40: I will just add the fact when you are let's say mediating those collaborations is also about making the tensions visible... ...and also stay with the tensions and work with them.

00:02:53: Okay Benjamin lets dig into your specific work.

00:02:56: You've been involved in the anti-relate project, which looks at the science society relations and climate change hotspots.

00:03:05: Including Swiss Alps of course!

00:03:07: What have you found?

00:03:10: So our project studies to what extent Science Society Relations are becoming more transformative as a response to environmental changes that are driven by humans.

00:03:21: That means we're interested.

00:03:26: long-term engagement with societal stakeholders, on the one hand.

00:03:30: On the other hand we want to know what extent they engage critically in system design and also try to redesign systems?

00:03:40: For instance there could question how decisions are made when it comes to climate change adaptation.

00:03:45: who gets a say in these decision making processes?

00:03:49: What we found is that this relations really diverse.

00:03:52: Some of the researchers, they are really pushing into transformative direction.

00:03:57: Others feel more comfortable in other places and we've identified a range of influencing factors such as local embeddedness skills of researchers political context but also defending conditions.

00:04:10: That's interesting.

00:04:11: But do you find that researchers are aware off which mode therein?

00:04:16: Do they reflect on it?

00:04:19: I would assume this.

00:04:19: some reflect on what others may be doing just what they are used to do.

00:04:24: So our project aims to actually support that kind of reflexive attitude and asking researchers to identify really, What kind of relations?

00:04:33: Do They want to have with societal stakeholders And how do they want these relations to develop in the future.

00:04:40: My colleague Ariane Wenger and me, we conducted interviews with researchers for that.

00:04:44: Ariane covered the Swiss part And she told me many of the researchers here in Switzerland They appreciated reflecting on their relations with stakeholders.

00:04:55: I actually observed when doing interviews with scholars from Finland.

00:05:01: You also ran a teaching course on transdisciplinary research in Alps The Transdisciplinary Case Study.

00:05:09: Can you tell us about that?

00:05:11: Sure.

00:05:11: It's a climate change adaptation in the Alps, and our case study region is the Saucerva, it's a region in the canton of prisons And its semester-long course where students develop a transdisciplinary research design then go to implement it into the region and it's closely accompanied by stakeholders on local advisory board.

00:05:32: I think the student develops quite some innovative research designs that seek to connect closely with the local knowledge about forests, water, agriculture and natural hazards.

00:05:45: For instance some of them did walking interviews with foresters.

00:05:48: others did photo voice interviews so interviews based on photos that farmers took about a change they observed in their own farms.

00:05:56: They discussed research ideas already there which I think is very valuable for having these connections.

00:06:07: And what do students usually find most surprising about the process?

00:06:12: I guess it's about how much time it takes to develop a solid transdisciplinary research design.

00:06:18: It takes essentially whole semester in our case, but then they also mentioned.

00:06:30: Something I observed is how quickly follow-up questions then emerged that they could not address in their own research, but it would require additional research.

00:06:39: Sheila let's turn to your work the upscale project about forest health monitoring.

00:06:45: But there are strong transdisciplinary components.

00:06:48: can you walk us through what does look like?

00:06:52: Yes sure i will first give a bit of context for this project for working packages.

00:07:00: The first two are the scientists who are collecting ground-based data and remote sensing data to understand three mortality also connected to drought, I'm in third work package indeed the TD component And i am basically responsible to collect needs of communities of practice that are working together with forest.

00:07:25: I work closely with working package four who will then develop a monitoring platform that is usable for both of these audiences, let's say.

00:07:36: So in practice the added value of the TD component is the fact that in Switzerland forest management is quite decentralized so to be able to do research that is place-based.

00:07:48: it means we are understanding specific needs And we're also understanding how drought impacts, for example different topographies.

00:07:58: So yes where conducted is Eterity Playspace methodology that allows for site specificity and also add component to quantitative data by enriching with different knowledge from different voices on the ground.

00:08:16: So if I understand you correctly, then you're also working against this linear idea of that science is producing something puts it in a paper and Then you wonder why practitioners don't use it.

00:08:28: Yes indeed.

00:08:29: Of course It's collaboration.

00:08:31: so it also implies tensions.

00:08:33: to go A bit further This idea that we just need to publish the results for example off the quantitative data collection about drought.

00:08:42: But indeed, this boundary object that we are using meaning the monitoring platform that will have a language accessible to people is exactly working at these interfaces of science and practice.

00:08:57: And also research in society.

00:09:01: Can you give an example where such local or practical knowledge added something that scientific data just couldn't cover?

00:09:11: So, yes I explained a bit before but during the PhD i noticed how it's precisely this field accuracy that could enrich scientific data.

00:09:22: For example with remote sensing technologies It is not super easy to be precise.

00:09:28: for example if you have an area which has shadows then images might be compromises.

00:09:34: But if you have a forester on the ground that's also is willing to, for example introduce their observation into let say this monitoring platform.

00:09:44: then you really see how those two words can compensate each other.

00:09:50: Another quick example it not part of project but I find always extremely inspiring was about when i went to interview Forester in Ticino.

00:10:00: And he told me for example that in the aftermath of a fire, He was um... In the field with scientists and they were observing the damages.

00:10:11: And you heard a sound specific sound.

00:10:14: So he told this to the scientist.

00:10:16: then the scientists really heard his voice?

00:10:24: Further on with research, discovered how this basically was the sound of a fungi and that is how it would react after fire.

00:10:33: And then they developed research about specific place-based experience embedded in knowledge of the forester.

00:10:40: so his observation I always find an inspiring story to think about How indeed those two words are really relevant.

00:10:49: Yeah, that's really a relevant and impressive example of transdisciplinary I think.

00:10:54: So it is not just nice to have in-net case but you create more holistic view when you integrate different forms of knowledge then

00:11:03: Exactly!

00:11:04: And for me personally there also an ethical dimension.

00:11:08: If your research is supposed help communities manage their forests during climate change Then those communities should be able real voice shaping the tools they build.

00:11:18: It's a matter of science democratization.

00:11:22: Now, let's zoom out a bit and talk about the structures that supports this kind of work because doing transdisciplinary research isn't just about individual researchers making different choices.

00:11:33: I think it requires a lot of institutional support also.

00:11:37: In my view funding is a major source of support And most grand schemes still reward publications in top journals which tends to push researchers toward conventional disciplinary work.

00:11:50: The SNSF has made some efforts to support transdisciplinary approaches, so both I think the upscale project and our anti-relate projects have been snsf funded.

00:12:00: but it's still an uphill battle in many cases and funding context careers might be another issue.

00:12:06: doing intensive stakeholder engagement organizing all of these workshops building trust with communities networking.

00:12:14: All of that takes a lot of time, it doesn't translate one-to-one in publications.

00:12:20: Researchers without permanent positions then face the real pressure.

00:12:24: there I think?

00:12:26: Yes!

00:12:27: I agree...I have to say i come from an arts background and there its bit more normalized design your research into participatory manner.

00:12:37: so place based methodologies and participatory processes are valued.

00:12:43: But if I were to think about, indeed the amount of time that i'm spending in this project and stakeholder engagement.

00:12:50: And also papers not being my primary goal... ...I can say it is a critical thing to value In specific context and science how you know.

00:13:01: Also documentation on these processes are extremely important.

00:13:06: So I do see the challenge of recognizing the importance of such practices in science field.

00:13:14: Maybe organizations like SAGUF can play a role here, right?

00:13:19: Let's talk about bridging functions... What role can professional societies or intermediary organisations play?

00:13:29: I think when you are researching that is not within mainstream but outside working unconventional way, as some would call it.

00:13:38: Having a community that supports you where you find researchers who pursue the same practices really helps because they get recognition.

00:13:48: You can also exchange about proper practices and organize joint events.

00:13:54: It also helps to make this kind of research more visible And think collectively on how to further improve our methods and the impact we generate both scientifically, and societally.

00:14:06: And I'd add a peer learning function.

00:14:09: in my experience The most useful things i've learned about how to do transdisciplinary work How to facilitate a workshop?

00:14:17: How to deal with conflicting stakeholders' interests ?

00:14:20: How to document co-produced knowledge?

00:14:23: I have learnt from other researchers sharing their experiences not from textbooks.

00:14:29: Societies like SAGUF create those spaces.

00:14:33: Are there other bridging organizations or projects that you find particularly promising?

00:14:40: Yes, I want to highlight the Swiss Young Academy here which is part of the Swiss Academies of Arts and Sciences.

00:14:46: as a member of this platform for younger researchers i've come to appreciate the dynamics that unfold when you develop joint projects with colleagues from really different backgrounds, other disciplines also, other institutional contexts.

00:15:02: For instance I'm currently leading a project on science society teaching tools together with my colleague Marion Badi from the University of Applied Sciences and Arts in Western Switzerland And there we collect tools that help engage students with societal partners outside the classroom.

00:15:18: Then of course all kinds international networks or platforms are relevant And that support exchange and collaboration.

00:15:26: One example is the ITD Alliance, but also in my field which is a bit more focused on governance and political aspects The Earth System Governance Network that's increasingly looking into inter-and transdisciplinary approaches.

00:15:41: So we are coming towards end of our time.

00:15:44: Let use time for quick reflection.

00:15:46: Benjamin what has surprised you most doing this kind research?

00:15:51: I think what surprises me is that i see a lot of willingness on the level of researchers, especially young researchers to engage with stakeholders and also make use of transdisciplinary research tools.

00:16:04: But then the key question is do they have the necessary skills?

00:16:07: And can they get the necessary funding for it ?

00:16:11: These are two major construction sites in my view.

00:16:15: For the skills ,I tried to address this through my own teaching trying to give our students the skills for transdisciplinary collaborations, irrespective of whether they are going to work in academia or policy and practice.

00:16:28: For funding I'm hoping further improvements for trans disciplinary research despite very difficult budget cuts that science is currently facing in Switzerland.

00:16:39: How about you Sheila?

00:16:40: What surprised you?

00:16:41: what gives hope by looking ahead?

00:16:44: So what surprised me is when I conduct field research and interview communities of practice, i'm always impressed on the sense of stewardship that I perceive both in terms of forest management but also in a wider sense.

00:16:58: In wanting to contribute two scientific endeavors And I don't take it for granted because I normally contact people outside of existing networks.

00:17:08: so Because I value hearing plural voices I'm always impacted on how generous people are to give one hour of their working time, let's say a stranger.

00:17:22: Indeed just for the motivation of collaborating with science.

00:17:26: so i can tell you what i would like to see in the future and its epistemic justice both across disciplines in the academic world but also in relationship between Science & Communities of Practice or Science & Society.

00:17:42: Thank you,

00:17:43: Sheila.