Climate lawyers

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00:00:51: Today's conversation explores the role of environmental law in practice.

00:00:57: Bernadette Kiersi speaks with Gaspard Genten from Avokat Esport Le Klimat a coalition of Swiss lawyers working to strengthen environmental advocacy through legal expertise.

00:01:09: Together they discuss what environmental law looks like in Switzerland, how it connects to broader global developments and where the field may be heading.

00:01:18: The episode also offers insights into current trends challenges case-law and entry points.

00:01:25: for those curious to learn more Let's listen in.

00:01:35: This is Bernadette Kirsi with the University of Freiburg's Environmental Sciences and Humanities Institute.

00:01:42: Today I had a privilege meeting with Gaspar Jantin, who was lawyer based in Lausanne Switzerland.

00:01:48: Mr.

00:01:49: Janton is active public and administrative law as well as commercial and corporate law.

00:01:55: He advises and represents Public Authorities, Public & Private Companies And Individuals particularly in matters of land use planning environmental energy and network industry law, public procurement and concessions.

00:02:10: Additionally he advises in corporate law and mergers and acquisitions both transactional and litigation matters.

00:02:17: Gespao is a member of an association of lawyers from various practices and locations in Switzerland called Les avocats pour le climat.

00:02:26: This group whose title translates simply to Lawyers for the Climate has four primary pillars That is, putting climate change on trial in Switzerland.

00:02:37: Building a network of climate-sensitive attorneys.

00:02:40: Gathering legal resources for climate cause and having a strong voice in the climate debate.

00:02:47: My goal was to discover more about the burgeoning field of environmental law And to discover the basics that are becoming increasingly important In this fight against climate change.

00:03:06: Also, Gespo thank you so much.

00:03:08: I really appreciate your taking time to chat with me today on these subjects.

00:03:14: How did you first get interested in

00:03:16: climate law?

00:03:18: So um i've always been interested in environmental politics and also law And what-I think how it starts is then in two thousand fifteen It was the Paris Agreement which adopted, and then in two thousand nineteen there was a lot of climate protest.

00:03:39: And the Climate Activism movement started quite strongly... In Switzerland were alot of climate protests.

00:03:47: What happened is that unfortunately it launched a wave of repression and criminalization.

00:03:53: So there's huge police and judicial repressions on climate activists.

00:03:58: so we start defending climate utilities in courts which were tried for having taken part, being peaceful assemblies and peaceful protests.

00:04:09: And as a group of soys we started defending them recalling that the right to freedom assembly... ...the Right To Freedom Of Speech was fundamental rights which was protected especially in the field of trying to attract attention into.

00:04:23: have the issue of the climate emergency come higher on the political agenda.

00:04:31: So in the agendas setting, we were several lawyers defending basically climate activists sanctioned and criminalized by having taken part peaceful assemblies.

00:04:44: so it started from the fundamental rights side.

00:04:47: then we start to strongly believe that we should also somehow fight back pushback on this issue.

00:04:58: founded Avocapole Klima, this association to bid is not only in a reactive position.

00:05:05: So basically defending people trying to defend the climate and not only defending environmental defenders but also trying put forward cases against states Also against certain companies To try to push for more action on climate change more generally to try and have a more environmental protection because the environment respectively, climate which is one of the facets of the environmental issues we're now facing.

00:05:37: Is it necessary for living conditions in Switzerland or abroad?

00:05:45: So typically what does climate law tend to look like on your colleagues' day-to-day basis.

00:05:53: So the question is always what we define as climate law.

00:05:58: Basically, on a day-to-day basis I'm also active in the field of environmental law generally speaking.

00:06:04: so historically an environmental law had a very anthropocentric shape view or starting point that is the protection of a human person from environmental emissions, threat but quite direct being pollution so noise and these elements.

00:06:24: We continue to do this.

00:06:26: we also have several cases with our association against states, companies.

00:06:34: as I said it's an important part unfortunately defending environmental defenders which are now criminalized for trying to use the right freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.

00:06:46: And, in a current situation is quite serious so...

00:06:50: So if you find that most your cases start from an individual level?

00:06:59: This isn't precisely the case because it depends on what type because the idea is every, for instance when we launch a political process or say strategy litigation there's also the question what are those goals of the litigation?

00:07:17: and so it will depend on.

00:07:20: What does that?

00:07:22: When I look at my own build cases where you try to use them this before all four political objectives but sometimes they may start from individual position with climate changes The always the same issue and we see that it's also an issue from a legal perspective.

00:07:39: is there this.

00:07:40: It's, its always so say to responsibility for you do emissions in greenhouse gases?

00:07:47: emission is quite diffuse.

00:07:49: any directly depends on our means of production and consumption and it's hard to find specific entity which is responsible.

00:07:57: let us alone and simultaneously.

00:07:58: impacts are also diffuse whereas it impacts the strongest, most vulnerable and in Switzerland abroad.

00:08:06: So I would say depends on type of the case or for course when we defend environmental defenders.

00:08:11: these are specific cases starting from individuals.

00:08:14: sometimes its also possible to have individuals which is specifically impacted by climate change but generally speaking A group of people, which together would convene to try and put forward certain rights or issues.

00:08:33: What other types of actors are you seeing in these cases?

00:08:37: Are we looking at NGOs, governments...

00:08:41: I would say that the entities which put forward the elements is always either people but usually people gathered in NGOs small a smaller NGOs for specific projects, sometimes bigger NGOs like Greenpeace or these kinds of organizations.

00:09:00: Most often it's the combination several types of organization.

00:09:04: Often starts by group of people gathering grounding an NGO and then cases are often then helped supported by bigger NGOs.

00:09:14: For instance that case we will discuss later the Klima Senorinen case.

00:09:18: It's really a case where they gathered together because it wanted to do something, protect the living condition of future generations and they felt responsibility as all women.

00:09:28: And also because all women were specifically threatened by climate change.

00:09:35: with climate change... ...the number and frequency and intensity of heat waves increases massively and these killed statistically more older woman.

00:09:46: This was a strategically constructed case where they had both, as a group of older women wanted to do something to fight climate change for the future generations.

00:09:57: And they gathered together and built this case.

00:10:01: They could argue that they had standing to challenge the Swiss in action with respect to climate change because there were personally specifically targeted allowing them that they had standing because this is the huge issue who can challenge an action of the state or insufficient action in our civil rights system.

00:10:27: One must be directly and personally affected by decision, we have to be more than anyone else.

00:10:36: And it meant They built this case, and then they were supported by Greenpeace.

00:10:48: And they brought the case before all of Swisscourt.

00:10:51: so first... ...they asked Federal Department for the environment to take action.

00:10:56: The department refused.

00:10:58: Then they appealed their decision at the Federal Administrative Tribunal and then the federal administrative tribunal said that it was not admissible.

00:11:07: So he did not even look at the case saying actually there weren't any more than anybody else even though they had put forward that as all the women, they were statistically more at threat.

00:11:21: And then they went to the federal Supreme Court which also said that their claim was not admissible because again... They weren't touched by anybody else so there's no standing.

00:11:34: and then they wanted a European Court of Human Rights.

00:11:36: it is very long process in the European Court.

00:11:41: The question the Switzerland tried to challenge the admissibility of their request, saying that they should also be considered not personally and directly touched or not sufficiently touched.

00:11:55: And did it could not claim status a victim before the court?

00:12:00: In there in European Court of Human Rights somehow found middle grounds.

00:12:07: how do you say?

00:12:07: they said that alone one person The individual claimants were not sufficiently threatened to claims the victim status alone.

00:12:19: However, they weren't allowed because they had similar interests.

00:12:22: that we're about to build together an association of people having in common a similar interest too collectively challenge and this was very interesting the European Court of Human Rights, the brain chambers or the highest court in the European legal system states that actually Switzerland was not fulfilling its obligation to protect their rights.

00:12:52: To private and family life under the facet of right-to health and a healthy environment for each citizen.

00:13:02: so this is good example.

00:13:04: The problem with climate law is that often it's considered to be not easily enforceable because its obligation, most of them arising from international laws which are imposed upon the state.

00:13:19: And how do we make these climate obligations in our court?

00:13:31: Only the individual person has standing or mostly.

00:13:36: there are some exceptions for big NGOs, but it's really limited.

00:13:39: And this is where fundamental rights come into play.

00:13:45: I see so in that case can you walk us through?

00:13:48: The types of legal tools and methods that are being used to pursue environmental justice Or what kinds of precedents Are we looking at?

00:13:58: they're being employed

00:14:00: Because in a legal system, property is really strongly protected.

00:14:04: It's what I think the strongest right that this... The protection of property and Switzerland is stronger than the protection of human integrity or stuff because it's our legal system.

00:14:17: And this also how another big chunk so to say of climate law can be mobilized from an individual perspective.

00:14:27: For instance if someone is able to demonstrate that property was threatened or jeopardized, or also damaged by an entity's action inaction.

00:14:44: Then it means they're so-so possible to try and create responsibility by intent of misconduct or negligence.

00:14:57: And this is also how the second part of climate law is put forward against states or against legal entities and private companies.

00:15:05: It's someone stated that, The state should be held accountable under a State Liability Regime for not having enforced or not having respected its obligation Be it by action Or by inaction or by negligence and Against Private Companies where it's stated The company is the causal responsibility for damage on property.

00:15:32: And I would say that third element where we can try to mobilize climate law or environmental laws in a more traditional way of land planning and environmental law, and for instance in development infrastructure projects because what's interesting about this is also my field of work.

00:15:54: it's human living condition needs some infrastructure, electricity or water facilities and so on.

00:16:01: But these infrastructures have an impact in the environment.

00:16:05: So usually there is a environmental impact assessment because they should be waiting for competing interest to know whether at end of the process we consider that building infrastructure are increasing.

00:16:21: it has a general role, so to say welfare increase for society.

00:16:27: And this is where now we are trying to state or push forward that within the environmental impact assessment We should not only assess The local impact of an infrastructure but also try To have the impact on climate.

00:16:45: So greenhouse gases emission Included and integrated in the climate assessment.

00:16:49: This basically how we use climate.

00:16:52: We try to, by using existing rules or existing fields of law which are more developed where in the courts they're more familiar with trying to bring in these climate obligations for states that are foreseen on international laws and now also on national law by implementation.

00:17:15: but this is basically what existing fields of law where we can somehow sleep in climate elements.

00:17:27: And the last element that we also use quite a lot is there are existing rules on fair competition, and the rules for fair competition between businesses have an area of the right unfair business communication... ...and basically from these rules were able to have several cases in Switzerland, but also abroad on greenwashing cases where basically it was stated that the statements made by the companies were basically wrong.

00:18:02: And for instance this is one of the big win of our association Avocat pour le climat Is that we're able to have a overwhelming body or fair commercial communication in Switzerland state at FIFA had to stop stating that the World Cup in Qatar was carbon neutral, because they basically have no ground to state this and it is obviously totally untrue.

00:18:34: And governing body on commercial communications said to the FIFA you should either prove that your carbon neutral or in the communication to use this, and it was a huge win because the FIFA had stopped immediately using the term carbon neutral.

00:18:54: Do you find that without sometimes having specific actors to place blame on?

00:19:02: You know, the issue of not being able to point at say a certain company or a certain person that's done it wrong.

00:19:12: Does this create further issues in this too where you're having to find these backdoors are loopholes so-to speak?

00:19:20: I would say that the loophole for the vectors is not really... Of course!

00:19:26: The fact that responsibility is diffused within our means production and consumption.

00:19:33: with an economic system This makes it not really easy, but I think the biggest challenge of climate law is that we should always recall.

00:19:41: That's climate law, but... It's not a specific of climate laws.

00:19:46: basically Law Is A Product Law is a product Of our society and law is a direct product.

00:19:55: The governing power relationships in our society.

00:19:59: Laws are not neutral.

00:20:00: Its Not Just.

00:20:02: This is I think something we have really to have in mind and basically, We should always ask ourselves.

00:20:08: And this where i think it's very important To keep in mind who makes the law?

00:20:12: How low is applied ?

00:20:14: Who applies the Law?

00:20:17: It's important that you have this framework because Basically the problem with climate law Is that it goes against economic interest.

00:20:28: That why its difficult to put forward Because our system The power relationship are in favor of the economic interest, basically.

00:20:38: It's difficult.

00:20:40: so this is how we're still trying somehow to use what has been produced by a system against the systems.

00:20:48: So that's why you have to use back doors.

00:20:50: Basically were trying to use fundamental elements or fundamental rights and I think as lawyers We also had an obligation To continue defending So the social wins that we had in the past, We have the moral duty to continue try defend also a space of liberty or freedom as brace up expression and there was collective consensus on the fact that we should.

00:21:20: Try prevent dangerous climate change.

00:21:23: now what would you do is to try within legal systems which are unfortunately which stem from the local power relationships.

00:21:32: This global consensus on trying to prevent climate change, prevent dangerous climate change and so there is a tension between those two.

00:21:41: but I think it's important to be present in this legal battleground that the legal battle ground is just i would say conflict of these elements, but it's very important to be present in its and is very important.

00:21:58: To defend what has been won?

00:22:00: To defend the climate that undertakings the climate agreements and defend the fundamental rights which are intended like living condition and several rights for four elements.

00:22:10: And I think this is This is a tension But it's always the same.

00:22:14: It's Always The Same Tension and this Is Also Where the other Challenges Of Difficulties Because For instance Defend climate law, but also environmental law or these elements is the fact that we have to make deaccessed justice much easier.

00:22:32: Because this was a very difficult topic.

00:22:36: We spoke about the issue of standing where it's hard for collective interests before courts because they really thought to protect individual rights.

00:22:48: But at least in Switzerland But also, for instance in the UK it's the same.

00:22:55: The courts are really costly.

00:22:57: In Switzerland It is hard to have cases against private companies because cases against Private Companies would be tried before civil courts.

00:23:09: and Before Civil Courts you Have To Pay An Advance On Costs Depending on the value at stake.

00:23:17: So this Is Because Our Legal System makes it quite costly to detect.

00:23:23: And this is again, why we have to use factors?

00:23:25: We have to find venues where the justice is not too expensive and in which there's a chance of mobilizing arguments that should be able put forward but I think its really interesting as our duty also to somehow enforcing climate undertakings because they resulted from consensus but then it's much harder to put in practice.

00:23:54: Yeah, I can definitely understand why that could be the case.

00:23:58: earlier you had mentioned one of the successful cases that Abokat Pudettimat had assisted with while pursuing false advertising claims related to FIFA World Cup regarding tools and elements being employed environmental justice law on some hurdles or successes.

00:24:16: Can you elaborate a little more on that case and some other cases that your association has handled?

00:24:23: Because FIFA is seated in Switzerland.

00:24:25: The case was here, in Switzerland before the business communication governing body And we stated that FIFA had no ground to state it as climate neutral.

00:24:36: We won because they were stating unfair business communications To say that FIFA was climate-neutral And actually this was a win in the specific case, but also it's ensure so to say across industries that the industry is when they claim.

00:24:57: They were having there are doing climate action or that their carbon neutral.

00:25:02: even stronger statements and day should be able to prove it.

00:25:07: basically it allowed you shut down the allegation of climate neutrality, or more-or less any industry because it doesn't exist in an industry which is carbon neutral.

00:25:19: Basically... It was a interesting case because really now it prevents industries to state that they are carbon neutral and forces them to have fairness on climate action's allegations.

00:25:35: The other case we tried in one Theodule Glacier case, where basically the association discovered casually that a ski slope was built for the World Cup on the Teodule glacier.

00:25:53: And because one of the big changes in climate change is Switzerland it's a big symbolic change to be precise!

00:26:01: It's the fact our glaciers are melting and there of Glacier in Switzerland.

00:26:10: They were building a ski slope on the Glaciers and we checked if they had an authorization to do so, And what was fun is that you can see there's no authorization for it outside of the building zone.

00:26:26: So based upon basic land planning rules which states that you cannot build anything without an authorization It was a very successful process because we wrote to the authority, the land.

00:26:43: The authority competent for building permits and we wrote them saying hey does that's the sticker position?

00:26:50: have a building permit outside of the building zone?

00:26:53: To build this key slope on a glacier And basically destroy the glacier for ski tour?

00:27:00: There is huge media coverage.

00:27:02: it was really fun Because there were somehow very messy two days writing, we received letters the association wrote letters and it's... And then at the end.

00:27:14: The outcome was quite clear they had no building permit to build something out of the building zone so that basically stopped the element.

00:27:23: Of course this is a symbolic win because now its not only symbolic but basically they were destroying the glacier concretely to build a ski slope and it was also really increasing, shortening the lifetime of the glacier because actually taking out all the elements.

00:27:43: But another symbolic one is that we cannot just for fun or economic interests destroy the glacier.

00:27:51: And currently there's third case which is state liability claim against the State of Switzerland.

00:28:01: small farmers because of the heat waves off The last summer crops were quite often totally destroyed.

00:28:10: and we are arguing on state liability also building upon up to win Of the clima senior.

00:28:18: he didn't stating that.

00:28:20: now it stated a system did not fulfill its climate undertakings.

00:28:26: So, it's in breach after law of his own.

00:28:28: So we have the highest court stating that Switzerland breached its climate undertakings, breach of law.

00:28:38: And on this basis it was intentional or at least grossly negligent because they decided not to do anything basically and were working to demonstrate the causality link.

00:28:52: This is a different issue, but we can demonstrate that had a different pathway being followed the impact would have been different.

00:29:01: And now the objective is to have a court condemned by the Swiss government... ...to pay for the impacted small farmers.

00:29:13: and then it's for the destroyed crops.

00:29:16: Of course if you look at what are the goals of this process?

00:29:19: It's two-fold!

00:29:22: defending actual farmers, and this is where we could build the case.

00:29:27: They had their crops destroyed.

00:29:31: very clearly they have not been indemnified so there are really worried of the fact that they had an economic loss which was not indemn unified.

00:29:41: And then of course The thing is also to put pressure on the Swiss government To at least fulfill its obligation, because what I think is really interesting in climate law but also quite sad is that there are undertakings on objectives of limits and climate change.

00:30:05: But these from the Paris Agreement... These are not fulfilled now?

00:30:10: Then again they're promised national state contribution which also should be fulfilled but which are not and we're trying to act on any possible way in trying to have Switzerland at least fulfill its part of the element.

00:30:28: And there it's really interesting because states sometimes try to state that they shouldn't be less responsible, because of course they aren't fulfilling their undertakings... ...that other States are also not fulfilling.

00:30:41: so I'm trying say how others should start before.

00:30:45: But what is really interesting?

00:30:47: instead in national administrative law, trying to argue that we did not fulfill our obligation because my neighbour didn't.

00:30:58: It's a very common argument and it... We have well-established case laws stating there was no equality in illegality.

00:31:08: so basically there were no equalities on the bridge of the law.

00:31:13: So, what counts for neighbors?

00:31:15: Counts also for states.

00:31:16: A state cannot argue that it did not fulfill its climate undertakings because the neighboring states didn't fulfil their climate undertaking.

00:31:24: And of course all these legal battles are about building legitimacy and I think this is why we're really grateful to Klimasenjo-Hinen.

00:31:35: they managed by winning a case to bring legitimacy arguments based on climate law.

00:31:44: Because when they started the Swiss government, which is how say self-assured or even a bit arrogant... They really somehow despised that process and were gluing at saying it will not fly!

00:32:02: It won't fly!

00:32:03: And I'm very grateful to the Klima Seniorin because The dominant voice not the view and not even the dominant.

00:32:15: I think that they're more correct you because fundamental rights is law It's not politics, it should be respected And its a continuous fight to defend fundamental rights and human rights.

00:32:28: but still it was still a dominant review in conservatives voices of the lot who say it gonna fly.

00:32:36: they held it.

00:32:36: They lost in first instance, the last and second instance at the federal Supreme Court but had a huge win on European Coat of Human Rights where the grand chamber told them rightly so that... ...they were claiming to be protected from a dangerous climate change And the state agreed to protect them from a dangerous climate change.

00:32:58: The State had taken undertakings specific objectives for reduction Decided not to do anything and it's really interesting because basically.

00:33:09: It's trying to hold the state also private entities Accountable, too.

00:33:14: Do what they basically undertook?

00:33:17: To do where when we're trying to do is not even It's all.

00:33:22: I said you were a climate activist or pushing forward for changes in the law.

00:33:26: Actually We are not claiming Changes In The Law.

00:33:29: We Are Just Claiming That Fundamental Rights And Human Rights As Existing Must Be Respected and that the climate undertakings which were taken must be respected.

00:33:40: And it's a continuous work to push these elements, but of course... The law is always as we said mechanism for social organization or social dispute resolution.

00:33:56: We try basically defend achievements in climate laws, defend human rights When the times are hopeful, we try to gain new achievements.

00:34:12: But these are results of political processes or legal processes and the interplay between social movements.

00:34:23: And this is where we play with avocat pour le climat alongside of the social movements and of the political processes to do our part defending existing achievements, but also I'm worried now for we are in a time where defending human rights fundamental rights is quite hard.

00:34:53: And it's difficult in a time where now we are currently before all defending the achievements, and hopefully soon will be again trying to do some gains on future.

00:35:06: But I think now that were... We continue to defend in courts!

00:35:11: Hopefully it also wins the right to freedom of assembly, the right for freedom of speech ,the rights to ask collectively more climate protection a space where this voice can be expressed and can be heard.

00:35:29: So it's thanks to the Klima senior human case, thank these winds for instance also that we have.

00:35:36: our association is also building legitimacy.

00:35:39: And what we hope?

00:35:40: why would build this association?

00:35:42: It was because were really sad and tired of hearing at the radio or television voices stating how people should go through the political process.

00:35:55: The political process should continue, but there is existing law which needs to be respected and we want it to recall strongly that fundamental rights human right is an existing law, climate law exists in a long time.

00:36:10: Climate undertakings are stinging law so political processes about changing the law is not supposedly applying.

00:36:19: So this is why we tried through the judicial prince pre-approcess to have climate law applied.

00:36:25: Do you find that these cases, even if they're symbolic or setting precedents for the future?

00:36:33: That not only based on just human rights law or advertising laws

00:36:39: etc.,

00:36:41: there might be a pathway of new forms?

00:36:48: How do you see the future of things, considering the events that are happening right now or more frequent cases such as climats in your

00:36:56: union?

00:36:57: I would say it does somehow enter into a conventional area for instance.

00:37:04: The law of torts will include it rapidly.

00:37:09: insurance laws will rapidly integrate these elements already If there is a huge changes, for instance in general terms and condition of insurances.

00:37:20: It's really now hard to get insurance in some places of the world even from some part of

00:37:25: U.S.,

00:37:27: because they became too costly.

00:37:29: further entrances to ensure.

00:37:31: And for instance or re-insurance system based on the idea that it was highly unlikely to have catastrophes simultaneously into place after the year.

00:37:44: And the thing is, that you cannot have simultaneously two big catastrophes simultaneously.

00:37:51: This is totally wrong.

00:37:52: now.

00:37:53: Now if for instance a heat wave You can't have catastrophes all across Europe and even simultaneously In Australia in Europe in the US Simultaneously or in Asia everywhere.

00:38:07: The rare insurance system Is really under pressure because of basic idea The elements, it does not work.

00:38:15: And I think the thing is... ...the climate degradation and environmental degradation are putting pressure on our living conditions.

00:38:23: It's putting pressure to health.

00:38:25: concretely We have been discussing a lot of law but basically in the hard facts of this case heatwaves kill people destroy crops makes living condition almost impossible in huge parts of the world.

00:38:39: So, increasingly it will enter normal law and also the social issue.

00:38:44: But what we are trying to defend or try to promote is still a society based on laws and fundamental rights and protection of living conditions for all.

00:39:00: And this where defending the law is important a world governed by power relationships we don't want to all covered by self-agistic interest with do not one.

00:39:14: Which is asymmetric and in just and this also why the climate movement is for most of people.

00:39:21: so i'm moving active in first social justice because there's no climate justice without social justice and defending human rights and fundamental right through.

00:39:34: and so, the more pressing will be this integration of these issues in our society.

00:39:43: But then, the question or problem is how do we face those issues and also these fears and concrete consequences?

00:39:54: We believe that a solution within fundamental rights to all just... living conditions and this is also where climate law plays a role.

00:40:06: I think we have to find the way which it just for everybody, which as shared but also differentiated responsibility Which one of the cornerstone of Climate Law?

00:40:16: It's because... We did not say that Because its directly rooted in our economic system Basically the richest Contribute them more to climate change rather less impacted by it And This Is Why Its.

00:40:31: It makes it really hard also to push forward.

00:40:35: The responsibility is unfairly distributed, but the consequences are unfairly-distributed as well and two do not overlap.

00:40:43: And this where climate law comes into play.

00:40:46: This was fundamental rights which were the common understanding But we have to defend them To remain a common understanding of what's their minimum threshold for all.

00:40:58: I think that's what they try.

00:41:02: I think a lot of people out there would like to know that

00:41:06: aren't

00:41:07: lawyers or involved in higher-up organizations, NGOs etc.

00:41:14: What could they do to support climate justice?

00:41:18: what can you and your colleagues?

00:41:21: but efforts push things forward.

00:41:27: Collective action is really the key, so I think people should gather in collective NGOs and trade unions.

00:41:35: In political parties.

00:41:38: they know everything.

00:41:39: that's a collective way of doing things like this.

00:41:47: I think it would also be useful for newspapers because correct information is necessary.

00:41:52: For instance, big companies are really like the tobacco industry.

00:41:56: But now their oil industry has been spreading false information on climate change and its causes or consequences by trying to buy all means of lobbyism in huge amounts of spending.

00:42:10: try to prevent a correct information for population on time exchange.

00:42:15: so I think to have complete information on it and I think newspaper important.

00:42:22: And again, then the law itself is nothing.

00:42:24: i think science and scientists should continue to research and try to explain what is the strongest science?

00:42:32: I think scientists...and it's always like I think interdisciplinary scientist would understand how political processes work and how the law works because we need them to explain in a way that we understand.

00:42:44: For the fight against climate change, it's important to have these elements put forward.

00:42:48: So I would say that for people is being involved in a collective discussion and i think its also important to be involved with political process because for instance in Switzerland we still had issues of spending on political campaigns or political parties are subject very limited rules and very limited restrictions.

00:43:10: so basically everybody is free to fund political campaigns, to front political communication.

00:43:16: So I think it's taking part in the discussion society how people should help to have climate law applied.

00:43:25: this basically take part in collective action and discussion.

00:43:28: if

00:43:31: someone an individual or even a group of people are harmed by environmental justice what What kind of initial steps are they looking at taking?

00:43:41: Where can we start with trying to pursue legal justice.

00:43:46: I think it really depends on what is the goal, if they're personally impacted... Again i think its a point-of-entry.

00:43:55: for instance our association or big companies like Greenpeace also offer elements but this again would help a lot.

00:44:07: we could somehow open the standing to challenge.

00:44:11: But if people who are directly impacted by climate change or buy an environmental arm, they do have standing to fight and put forth these claims arguments... And I would say that you should try to find a organisation which can help support this process because again unfortunately until now quite a lot of of effort and consuming, but I think it's worth trying.

00:44:38: It is by trying that we do it so i would advise to do so.

00:44:46: on that note what keeps you motivated in this field where progress can be slow?

00:44:51: a lot of times the time factor is an element in order to prove certain injustices.

00:44:59: sometimes we need to look at them over time

00:45:02: or

00:45:04: future harms can't be proven, how do you stay motivated in dealing with some of these kind of setbacks or potential discouragements?

00:45:15: Well I would say that at the end we're still trying to defend a better living condition for all and there is always something to defend.

00:45:26: And i think it's also motivating to be defending the social achievements of the past.

00:45:34: Participative democracy, where there is a room for activism discussion political debate.

00:45:42: And because I strongly believe that this is only in this way we can find our way through.

00:45:47: so actually i think it's motivating to be somehow trying to do our best and would say its really interesting!

00:46:01: a modest but positive contribution to the law.

00:46:06: And for instance, I think also To make a contribution.

00:46:10: i think it's really important Also for instance too For law students to keep in mind that The Law is not neutral and It's Really having keeping this look on the fact That the law Is produced ,is made How the law is applied?

00:46:28: Not taking as something that would be neutral or just, because I think this totally hides the underlying power relationships.

00:46:38: And to not only change the law but also make a contribution into more respectful world for fundamental rights and climate justice is really keeping in mind.

00:46:50: it's basically the law production of our society, political system... I would say that one big way to contribute to climate justice, will be give the right vote for most of people in Switzerland.

00:47:09: Because we have so hard laws on citizenship and because we have laws which prevent the acquisition of citizenship.

00:47:17: if someone has depended from social security contribution We make it really hard to gain Swiss citizenship which in turns excludes from the political process huge part of the population.

00:47:32: So I would say it's basically everywhere that we can make a small contribution to climate law and climate justice, And i think this is also what should be kept in mind instead as law Is very important and very symbolic parts of our social system.

00:47:49: Also because somehow something that anchors or rights are common rules Or not even have common rules I would say the applicable rules, whether or not they're necessarily common because none of them really took part.

00:48:01: It's their entire discussion.

00:48:02: but probably you've studied on so-called contra socials who did join these contras?

00:48:08: Who signed it and who took part in this decision.

00:48:11: And basically we see that...it is just a discussion about an open democratic society to try to have as open and democratic as possible But its' not only majority rule also respect for minorities protection of fundamental rights, also the rules which should allow that current minorities could become majorities in the future.

00:48:34: And it's defending all these elements as well as the collective achievements we do and I think its quite motivating to be somehow defending a society which is fair just and gives place for everybody.

00:48:49: live their fair life.

00:48:54: it's motivating to continue to do so.

00:48:57: I agree, Do you have any words for our listeners?

00:49:00: Any final thoughts from them?

00:49:03: No i would say that its worth fighting for.

00:49:06: well... You want live in and the world is fairer for everybody.

00:49:11: And this basically what we try to do with our association of Acapulatima.

00:49:15: What i'd say.. It's motivating but i would invite people too engage in society, take part and fight by any mean be it's collective action producing science producing information or also taking care of people.

00:49:31: And if its also just taking part in a society we want to live in sure.

00:49:37: when you know that anyone stopped for their collective actions whether the civil war Uncivil or disobedient, then hopefully they've got a friend in you to defend them.

00:49:52: Of course!

00:49:53: This is also the right... In the democratic society there's a right for expression and the right of expression encompasses the right to express our political position to the state as well as the political position towards elements.

00:50:06: And precisely fundamental rights must protect and permit space for protest.

00:50:12: We see it as a struggle, and I would be happy to help.

00:50:16: And we are still happy to defend the right to express ourselves especially when it's to promote our world worth living

00:50:25: in.

00:50:26: Wonderful!

00:50:27: Thank you so much.

00:50:28: thank you i appreciate that this has been a production of sustainability talks at UNIFR.

00:50:37: thanks for joining me to learn about the field.

00:50:42: For info on sustainability at the University of Freiburg, you can visit unifr.ch.

00:50:49: slash durabilité and for more information on Avocat pour le climat You can visit avocaclima.ch.

00:50:57: À la prochaine!